Posted on April 9th, 2007 by JJS.
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I’ve been through my fair share of clients, well over a hundred successful transactions in the past two years for that matter, and I’ve come to know when a project is worth taking on or not. As a freelance designer, I know that time was of utmost importance. Knowing when to drop a potential project can mean hundreds (and in some cases, thousands) of dollars, not to mention precious time. Now, I share my knowledge with you! Here’s some situations I suggest I’ve been faced with that I suggest you try to avoid:
- I don’t have any money, but this will get you some great exposure! Heard this before, and 9 times out of 10, that’s complete and utter bullshit. Unless you have some hard evidence that your client’s project will, without a doubt, succeed, then don’t give in to this kind of ploy. Client’s that tell you this are generally just looking for some free design work and aren’t worth your time. However, there are certain times when some back-links are worth your time. For example, let’s say that your client owns a site that sells non-unique Wordpress themes. Your client comes to you looking for a Wordpress design to add to their inventory, but doesn’t have any cash on hand and offers a link to your site in the footer of the theme. This could potentially be very profitable for you, providing that people buy the theme and that the people who buy it actually have some decent traffic. On the other hand, this could prove to be pretty pointless; if the only people that use your theme own blogs about gardening, chances are no one’s going to be clicking the “designed by” link you so graciously accepted as payment for the design. Use your brain in this situation and evaluate how much exposure you’ll actually be getting.
- I’m not sure what I want, and I won’t pay if I don’t like it. I’m sorry, but do I look like a Jedi to you?
I can’t read your mind, and neither can most normal people. Clients that have no idea what they want are either really indecisive or haven’t put all that much thought into their site. Chances are, they probably have no idea if they’ll want to pay you either. Never work without some kind of design brief, it should save you some misery.
- I have a few other designers in mind, can you create a few mock-ups and maybe I’ll pick you? This can be one of a few things. The client could possibly already have a designer picked out and needs some ideas to hand over to him. What better way to get free ideas than to ask for free mock-ups from a bunch of other designers? The client might be an honest person and is just looking to find the best designer he can get with his money. Either way, free mock-ups are generally a waste of time. Put your foot down and tell the client that you’ll do free mock-ups — if you’ve received a 50% down-payment.
- I’m not comfortable with a contract/up-front deposit, can we go without it? Don’t bend for anyone. If you’re old enough to be legally binded by a contract, do it. Protect your own ass as much as you can. Take a 50% up front deposit so clients can’t simply run away with your hard work. If a client ever suggests that you change your business practices for them, deny them (in a professional way, of course) and move on.
- I thought this was supposed to be coded? I’d like my money back. If you’re like me, you love the Photoshop aspect of design and can’t stand coding. I generally just create .PSDs and refer my clients to a good coder to get their project finished up, or handle the outsourcing myself and hand over the complete package. I’ve run into quite a few clients though, that never mention a word about front-end coding until it comes time for payment. As soon as the phrase “my PayPal address is ..” comes up in conversation, the words “I thought this was going to be coded” flies right back and slaps me in the face. So, after my first encounter with this situation, I’ve kept logs of all my conversations so that when someone tries to get free coding out of me, I can send them a large text file and tell them so try to find the words “coding”, “HTML” or “CSS” in it. Sidenote: After many comments regarding this point, I thought I should add this. My clients know that I outsource my coding work, and I make this very clear. This point refers to clients that try to get free work out of you, which is quite common these days.
Once again, I hope this article can help some designers out! Thanks for reading, and have a great Easter Monday!
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April 9th, 2007 at 2:47 am
Great article! Agree with everything you have said there. Shall bookmark this for future reference.
April 9th, 2007 at 2:56 am
[…] This is more for the freelancers/designers on the forum. Complete with Star Wars reference! DesignersMind » Blog Archive » Five reasons to turn down a potential client Enjoy the read! __________________ [ MindEmber ] [ Web Design Portfolio of Tyler Lemieux ] [ […]
April 9th, 2007 at 3:15 am
[…] http://www.designersmind.com/general…ential-client/ […]
April 9th, 2007 at 3:34 am
Great articles Tyler, however yes if you put a cloak on you would indeed look like a Jedi. Other than that some great points to take in.
April 9th, 2007 at 11:30 am
Completly irrelivant, but what is the font that you used to write “Me.” and “Jedi.” on the image comparing you and the Jedi?
Thanks!
April 9th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
Peter, I believe I used the font Kalinga.
April 9th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
I hear these all the time …. thanks for the reminder.
April 9th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
If customers are like Jedi. Then, they wont be very numerous!!!
April 9th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
Yes, in that picture you do kind of look like a Jedi.
My employer has attempted to use all of those excuses at one time or another. It is mortifyingly embarrassing. I just want to hide every time I hear a manager say, “they’ll want to work with us for free because it’ll get their name out there” or “thanks for the proofs, but we’re going to go with the vendor who’s five cents cheaper.”
April 9th, 2007 at 3:45 pm
Thanks Tyler,
Also for providing a good article that I can read ;]
April 9th, 2007 at 8:19 pm
I’m sorry, but do I look like a Jedi to you?
That’s a classic.
April 9th, 2007 at 11:35 pm
Thanks, I’ll make sure to always keep these things in mind.
April 16th, 2007 at 12:16 am
I also would add a type of people, who claim themselves as “artist”, trying to use you as a playground.
Let’s say what they want is pretty simple website. You negotiated a price, amount of work, etc. You’ve completed a few mock-ups and he formally accepted them. Then, when almost 95% of job is done, he starts with his “great ideas”, which are simply non-compatible with the whole design. You see it, he sees it, everybody sees how ugly it became after his “fresh ideas” are in place.
Now you have a choice: a) re-do the whole design with his ideas in mind (he will add more, when it’s almost done) for additional price; b) talk to him and convince him that these are great ideas, but not now, not this way and not here; c) drop the project and walk away without final payment (50% usually).
Once I stuck with this guy and spend a few iterations, making mostly “a” choice but without price increase. Really painful experience.
April 16th, 2007 at 12:34 am
Pavel: I can’t say I’ve ever come across that type of client, but I have dealt with some clients that believe they have a designer’s eye. Some clients may have somewhat of one, but this particular client wasn’t one of them; needless to say, that was a bad experience and I was happy to finally finish the project.
April 16th, 2007 at 3:32 am
You right, “designer’s eye” type is somewhat similar.
April 16th, 2007 at 4:52 am
Good article.
I put many clients of due to some/all of the above.
Though, i tend to focus on Server Side coding now, the clients seem to know what they want, and how they wan’t it.
April 16th, 2007 at 7:50 am
I thought this was common knowledge. Not trying to flame but since most of you are web designers, you are still pretty much fresh meat to the internet. Any systems admins, backend engineers and anyone who specializes in standardization knows these guidelines.
I guess this helps with new people who want to be web designers or have started doing work freelance.
April 16th, 2007 at 7:52 am
Great article, you’ve got a great writing style too!
April 16th, 2007 at 7:53 am
Dude,
You can’t make a deal for designing a site and NOT mention the fact that you won’t code it this is dishonest.
Thats like buying a car without an engine. Besides any good designer will know how to at least use a wysiwyg and slice their psd’s, if you can’t code it yourself.
Not to mention creating large psd’s is oldschool time to get up on the web2.0
(CSS, XHTML, XML, ETC).
April 16th, 2007 at 8:04 am
[…] Follow this link for more […]
April 16th, 2007 at 8:12 am
Seriously, doing design WITHOUT coding is, well, doing very little. Taking a person’s money and giving them a pile of worthless PSD files is dishonest and idiotic.
April 16th, 2007 at 8:13 am
I shall attempt a retort from a “non-designer” and “business owner” angle….
1. Do not write off bartering. Doing work for free from something highly untraceable like “exposure” is in fact stupid. Instead, barter for other services. Chances are, they are selling something too, so let them trade for whatever they are offering.
2. I realize content and copy are key ingredients for most designers to work their magic. But here is a hint. Use a contract. Problem solved. Take some queues from the coders for God’s sake. If I have to explain what needs to be on this very simple contract, you probably should not attempt freelancing, mmkay? Read a book on small business management.
3. There is a damn good reason why I want mock-ups. I don’t know you, and therefore do not trust you, and therefore do not trust that the work in your portfolio is even your own. You do realize just how easy it is to steal designs and show them off as your own right? Again, contract. But do not blame us, the client, for this. Blame large ad agencies and their kin…they started this. Seriously, how else can I trust you have even the most remote clue as to what I want, when I do not even know! It is foolish to think most business owners have the time to sit down with ten different designers and ask for comps. Granted if that is the genuine reason for them asking for comps, it is bullshit. But for me, that is not the case. I want comps to prove your COMPetent and so I can pick out the design I like the best. And yes, I am willing to pay for that time.
4. And the truth, shall set you free. Some might argue 50% is steep if it is a large project. I would prefer contracts to be contingent on deliverables/due dates for the milestones. I’ll give you 25% down…and X% when I get my comps, and X% when I get my rough draft, and X% for those 300 changes I have to make, etc. I think that would keep the designers in check, because all too often you designers take the 50% and take your sweet damned time with getting the work done. But overall, I agree. Contracts, contracts, contracts.
5. Can not disagree there. But customer/client expectations should be spelled out completely in…wait for it….wait for it…..almost there……………a contract!!!
April 16th, 2007 at 8:23 am
I have to disagree with you atarix64. If a client wants a design then that is exactly what they will get. If they had specified that they wanted a site then the coding would have been outsourced (as stated in the article).
There are many ways to skin a cat and in this instance slice a design (XHTML/CSS, TABLES/TABLELESS, ETC) and some of these require a different skillset.
Although, if it were me i would get clarification as to whether or not coding would be required, just to be on the safe side and for there to be no misunderstandings.
April 16th, 2007 at 8:33 am
Dudes,
He’s SEVENTEEN. Give him a break. I’ve been designing for 25 years and doing web sites for 8. Initially I used to do all the coding myself. Then I was introduced to carpel tunnel and a myriad of other RSIs up and down my shoulders and spine. I have NO problem outsourcing the coding and charging for the design, especially for commericial websites. No offense but not all coders are good visual designers.
April 16th, 2007 at 8:35 am
@atarix64:
Not everyone has experience with CSS, XHTML, etc…We are designers, not programmers. I started in freelance before giving it up to join a development company so I didn’t have to bear the business burden, I just draw and create, which was my goal to begin with. The point is, as a freelance designer, clients merely assume you have all the requirements they seek to finish a project for as little as possible. That is rarely the case.
And sometimes you’ll even run into a client looking to jump start a business into the web community, with zero experience in it beforehand, who simply don’t know that the design area and coding area are two separate areas. You may say that any good designer is capable of some level of programming. I beg to differ, any good designer is a good designer, not a programmer. Any good programmer worth their beans can work with any design.
April 16th, 2007 at 8:36 am
The VERY first thing you need to tell your customers is that you are not writing a scrap of code and you’re just giving them a picture of what it would look like. Why do you think so many people come back and assume you are going to code it? Quite simply, because that is the most rational assumption.
Why even bother making a PSD? Just draw it out or write it on a bar napkin if you’re just delivering a picture of the design.
April 16th, 2007 at 8:38 am
I have to admit that I agree with all the points except one. If someone asks you to design a website, that implies functionality which requires coding. If someone asks you to design the layout, that is something different, that implies non-functionality.
I truly hope you are not leading them on. After all, the goal of any project work is to make the customer happy. That is priority one.
April 16th, 2007 at 8:42 am
I agree with wilbus. It’s not an outlandish assumption to be making that they’ll actually get some code - it’s the Internet, not print. It is worth mentioning up front.
April 16th, 2007 at 8:45 am
I completely agree JF above.”
A “conversation log” is clearly not enough to prove any point, since it only represents *your* point of view. If you don’t want to go all the way to a formal contract (which I’d recommend), at least put together a proposal in writing clearly stating the cost, schedule and deliverables of your work (a.k.a. scope). Get your customer to sign this proposal and your life and your customer’s will be much happier.
April 16th, 2007 at 8:48 am
The idea of handing over an PSD to me is odd. My clients pay for websites. The PSD is worthless to them without the XHTML/CSS to go along with it…
But, hey. If you can get people to pay for a PSD, more power to you.
April 16th, 2007 at 8:55 am
Good article, but instead of waiting for the client to ask you about coding the site you should discuss this during your discovery phase. If you don’t have a discovery phase then you probably need to rethink how you are handling your “business”.
April 16th, 2007 at 8:56 am
Most people are cheap bastards and only employ “outside help” when they don’t have the necessary skills. If my toilet plugs up, I can whip out the plunger and fix it. If a pipe bursts in the basement, I’m calling a plumber. Most people don’t realize there is actual talent and experience involved in creating a good design. So before they contact you, they are probably thinking “I can draw up some purty pictures myself, but I don’t know how to website-ify them!” So you end up delivering something they think they could half-arsed themselves AND you don’t give them what they really wanted.
You mention asking the customer to find the words HTML and CSS in the conversation log. Does it specifically state in the contract that you are providing PSD files which are only pictures of a website?
I couldn’t agree more with laughing in the face of people who will “let” you do their web design in exchange for exposure.
April 16th, 2007 at 8:58 am
Tyler, you are wise beyond your years! I started designing at 13 (the beginning of the dot-com boom), and have yet to meet anyone similar in that aspect. What you have listed in this post had taken me a few years to realize… great stuff!
April 16th, 2007 at 8:59 am
Agreed with all the others talking about PSD’s. You’re being dishonest / baiting and switching if you say “ZOMG, coding, ewwww!” when designing another person’s website. Like you said, if you’re old enough to write a contract, you’re old enough to get bitten in the ass by that immature attitude. What you should do is partner with a service specializing in what you hate (google: http://www.psd2html.com/order-now.html ) and ask for a referral fee / discount. That way clients get what they really want (not a friggin pretty picture) and you get a few extra $$$.
–Robert
April 16th, 2007 at 9:06 am
Come on guys… grow up… HTML/XHTML is part of website design… its only difference is the level. Whether it is SEO friendly HTML codes or just a piece of crap of HTML codes.
A .PSD File or a .JPG file of the web page cannot be called as a web page itself therefore its not website design, its only graphics design.
So next time don’t forget to clear things up with your clients before you start doing anything and got slapped at the end.
Cheers…
April 16th, 2007 at 9:07 am
Overall there are some very good thoughts here, but they’re a bit sweeping for me in some cases.
The one I’ve had a bevy or problems with is your last, the handing off of a PSD file, or more accurately the handing to me of a PSD file. This works well if you come from it with completely open coding, pricing and time constraints but this has never been the case for me. I’ve always been brought in to work within an existing web context and they hand me a PSD file designed by some guy who no knowledge of how the CMS I’m adapting works, how basic web apps work or what kind of checks they are writing for the coder based on their image.
In the end this comes off as trying to decouple design from implementation which has always been a recipe for disaster in my experience.
April 16th, 2007 at 9:10 am
Well, people are saying what I wanted to say but feared that I would be labeled a flamer (lol). Anyhow most companies WANT to see that you can code and are not just some kid with a WYSIWYG editor. You have to remember that most companies during the dotcom boom got burned by people with no coding or web design skills and labeled themselfs as “web designers”, charging upward of $50 TO $100 a hour “coding” and really only using some type of GUI editor. Ask these same people to change files or site issues and if they did not have the editor of choice and were stuck with note pad or something they were completely stuck and useless.
It’s the same today to a lesser extent. web designers are a dime a dozen and all claim to be experts, when in reality most of them took a week long course on how to use a wiziwig editor and a gui ftp application.
I myself even have a friend who claims to be the internets biggest gift to web designers everywhere. He took some course, taught himself some stuff and worked for a small startup doing single page designs. He always asks me what he is doing wrong and why he cannot get a job doing this. (he has been looking for over 3 years) I tell him, “get out of the web design business”
Now there is some really good talent out there if you know where to look but again most web guys are a dime a dozen and have no “old school” design skills. Hell most think the internet was created when the web first hit.
April 16th, 2007 at 9:15 am
You said it. Will send this page to my colleagues.
April 16th, 2007 at 9:16 am
Regarding not coding my own designs: my clients know that I outsource coding work and I make that clear. The idea behind the point I made in the article is that you shouldn’t be stuck doing work that wasn’t discussed. I advertise my services accordingly — I create the image of a website. I can code (I’m not amazing but I could offer it as a service if I felt the need), but I prefer to spend my time working on the graphics side of things. I have some good coders to outsource too.
To anyone who needs a good XHTML/CSS coder, check out http://www.xhtmlthis.com/. Great coder, great attitude, reasonable pricing and very reliable.
“Like you said, if you’re old enough to write a contract, you’re old enough to get bitten in the ass by that immature attitude.”
I’m actually not old enough to write a contract, or sign one for that matter, but I don’t find my attitude towards the matter ‘immature’. I simply enjoy creating the image, and my clients know that. There is a market out there for uncoded designs.
April 16th, 2007 at 9:16 am
RE: I thought this was supposed to be coded? I’d like my money back.
This part of your post needs more facts. Did you tell the client, who responded to your payment request with a request for coding, that you would not be coding the site prior to starting the project? Do clients often assume you do coding? Do other “freelance designers” do coding?
RE: I’m not sure what I want, and I won’t pay if I don’t like it.
For a potential client that is unsure of what they want, this is an opportunity to make a rough draft of a design and submit it for approval. Instead of turning away business you can set incremental points where you get paid or the client abandons the project and does not pay for the most recent increment.
Your post was a good starting point for designers. I recommend hiring an attorney at the outset of your venture to draft an agreement or look over a possible agreement. Then incrementally consult this attorney to make sure you are still using the best practices.
April 16th, 2007 at 9:19 am
[…] Five Reasons to turn down a potential client […]
April 16th, 2007 at 9:22 am
Great points. Coming at it from a different perspective (myself and the firm I cofounded do the coding while outsourcing the design), I can say that we’ve run into many of these issues.
Probably the best advice I can add is to always have a very clear statement of work that the client signs off on. Narrow it down as closely as you can. It can be a pain in the neck to spend a couple unbillable hours putting together this SOW, but think of it as an insurance policy for disagreements later.
April 16th, 2007 at 9:24 am
[…] I can think of ten reasons but this is a good start.read more | digg […]
April 16th, 2007 at 9:24 am
[…] ’s some situations I suggest I’ve been faced with that I suggest you try to avoid.read more | digg […]
April 16th, 2007 at 9:28 am
“Why even bother making a PSD? Just draw it out or write it on a bar napkin if you’re just delivering a picture of the design.”
Sometimes there’s more to the graphic portion of a site than a basic hand drawn layout. I guess I would call myself a graphic designer as opposed to a web designer, although I usually refer to myself as a designer, someone who designs and codes as a developer, and someone who works with the back-end a coder, although that’s just my personal word choice.
April 16th, 2007 at 9:29 am
I ahve to say that avoiding mentioning coding in client meetings is underhanded. Since most clients won’t know there is a difference between a web designer and a coder it is your responsibility to inform them. You are acting as an agent for the client and when you deny them information you are acting unethically. This is very unprofessional and it puts you in a worse light than these clients you are bad-mouthing here. Learn to act professionally.
April 16th, 2007 at 9:30 am
As I have told many people before (from years in Public Accounting), not getting paid for work performed is a sales problem, not a collection problem. Too many people think getting the “SALE” is all that matters. We’ll worry about collection later. The majority of clients I have had in the past would make more money and have higher profit margins if they cut loose between 1/3 to 1/2 of your customers. Only keep the best. Don’t do business with people that have no respect for what you do. And never, NEVER!!! do any work for ANYBODY without and engagement contract that spells out exactly what you will do and what they expect you to do.
April 16th, 2007 at 9:31 am
Web design without coding is not web design. Learn PHP, SQL, CSS, and maybe Java and you can call that web design.
April 16th, 2007 at 9:35 am
Vertinox: Design refers to the plans or outline of a work to be executed. Therefore, web design without coding is web design. As is coding without design.
April 16th, 2007 at 9:42 am
Interesting stuff, I get the first one a lot with people trying to get free websites for some back links and free exposure.
April 16th, 2007 at 9:47 am
I thought I was going to get some code with this post
Just kidding, great article!
April 16th, 2007 at 9:49 am
Once again, the coders are right here. The other points were all quite valid, but it’s not web design without code. As much as I hate to say it, in the web design field, there is no such thing as a pure “designer” unless you’re part of a company’s web design/development team. Even if you don’t build the site yourself, you at least need to build a template for coders to work the design into.
If you’re doing nothing but the visual design, you need to tell them upfront that there is no code involved in your work. However, expect to get a lot of rejections or at least lowered bids.
April 16th, 2007 at 9:50 am
you forgot the “do all the fancy features so i can pick the ones i like” type of client
the fifth reason looks kindof thin. a project should have all the big stuff outlined before working. to change a picture or a light blue with a dark blue is ok, but things like coding should be the first things to discuss
April 16th, 2007 at 9:55 am
As a side note, please don’t try to debate the meaning of the word “design”. The industry doesn’t care if design is still design if it doesn’t have code.
The reality of the matter is this: look up graphic design or web design jobs on Monster and you’ll find the overwhelming majority of both expect you to know at the very least HTML, CSS, JavaScript most likely, and some form of scripting language such as PHP or the .NET framework.
You’ll be lucky if the graphic design jobs don’t also expect you to do print graphic work as well (brochures, advertisements, etc) and maybe even write copy/presentation material.
Design from the creative aspect alone is admirable, but realistically, don’t expect to get paid as well for it.
April 16th, 2007 at 9:58 am
“the fifth reason looks kindof thin. a project should have all the big stuff outlined before working. to change a picture or a light blue with a dark blue is ok, but things like coding should be the first things to discuss”
People don’t see any reason to discuss something as obvious as coding though. To steal a comparison from the Digg board, that’s like going to the mechanic. He writes down the instructions and draws a picture of how to fix your car but refers you to someone else to take care of the nuts and bolts.
April 16th, 2007 at 10:02 am
HTML isn’t code. It’s markup. If you can’t turn a PSD into HTML/CSS, you need to learn a few things before getting paid for it.
April 16th, 2007 at 10:04 am
“People don’t see any reason to discuss something as obvious as coding though.”
Again, look at the industry idea of what a Graphic Designer is on job boards. It’s not as obvious as you think. So while doing the graphics alone is all fine and dandy, most clients/employers aren’t educated in our field enough to know the difference between a design for a web site and “web design”.
April 16th, 2007 at 10:11 am
I’m going to recommend you to other business, can you over charge them so you can undercharge me?
I think not!
April 16th, 2007 at 10:19 am
Wouldn’t it be easier to just make sure and discuss the topic of coding with the client rather than to keep a huge text file of every conversation you’ve had with them just to send it back with a smart-alic comment about doing a search “CSS”.
Plus, this also helps you to set expectations with the client so you are less likely to disappoint them.
Other than that, I definitely agree with your comments.
April 16th, 2007 at 10:19 am
It is designers like you, who make coders people’s lifes hell later when they want things done right. Puke barf barf. I bet you need .NET to see your pages right. Laaammmaaa
April 16th, 2007 at 10:58 am
I don’t see what the fuss is about - this guy has made a business decision that his time is more valuable doing good page design and outsourcing the markup and the coding. If he can build a niche doing that he’ll be happy doing what he loves to do and making money at it while the rest of you are still arguing over the definition of web design.
If you read through his post, comments, and his own website it seems pretty clear to me that he’s NOT leaving his clients totally out on a lurch with a simple PSD when they were expecting a working website. So what’s the big deal? I know a lot of really good designers who are also capable of markup who let someone else in the production cycle do that because their time is more valuable designing.
@JF - it wasn’t on this list, but another type of client is the guy who uses contracts to define every last detail so that in the end they can try to weasel out of them - i’m not against contracts, but a guy who wants everything defined in a contract and *then* wants *free* mockups because they don’t *trust* that the work in my portfolio is actually my own work sends up all sorts of red flags…
@Vertinox - knowledge of languages like php, java, and even css makes you no more of a *designer* than someone who uses The Google on The Internets
April 16th, 2007 at 10:59 am
Actually, I think you do look like a Jedi
April 16th, 2007 at 11:12 am
@gb - The issue isn’t that some people want to focus solely on graphical design and leave the coding to others. The issue is that in a list of only FIVE crucial reasons to turn down a client is listing something that most clients and designers would expect you to do! That’s like contracting a construction company to build your house. They drop off the raw materials and give you the business card of someone that can put it together.
Graphical design and coding are both “arts” to a degree. So knowing how to google and search php.net aren’t going to give you the ability to write good code.
April 16th, 2007 at 11:16 am
Nice article, very informative thank you….
i do reckon you’d look more of a jedi if you bought yourself a cloak.
April 16th, 2007 at 11:20 am
#1,2,3: Been there, done that!
April 16th, 2007 at 11:24 am
@burtangle - I think he could’ve chosen a better example, but ultimately his 5th issues is being misinterpreted - it’s NOT about coding/markup at all, it’s about clients, who go into a project aware of everything and then choose to become unaware of some aspects of the project, hoping to get something they weren’t actually paying for in the first place.
and you completely missed my joke on coding - it wasn’t a jab at coding at all - I whole-heartedly agree that excellent code and backend development is indeed an art form in and of itself - my point is simply that being an excellent coder does not make you a good visual designer, or vice versa.
April 16th, 2007 at 11:26 am
Great article
Not to mention you’re totally hot.
April 16th, 2007 at 11:38 am
@Winnie:
Thanks haha.
April 16th, 2007 at 11:44 am
Sorry, but if you’re just doing up pretty pictures in Photoshop then you’re just a graphic designer. If you can’t be bothered to knock out the most basic of HTML or CSS you’re useless as a “web designer”. HTML is _not_ programming and nobody is asking you to write a program in C++ or Java. There are competent web designers who can do the whole project without having to subcontract every item to someone else. If you’re going to go that route you should be a project manager, not a designer.
April 16th, 2007 at 11:45 am
From psd to xhtml..
www.xhtmlized.com
April 16th, 2007 at 11:54 am
@gb: That entry was written with tongue in cheek. I am willing to pay for the time to do mock-ups. However if I do not know you, I want to see more then a portfolio that I can no more trust then your word. This is where the contract comes into play. I have expectations, you have expectations. Lay those our in clear wording. If either fail to meet them, move on. If you want X dollars to do some mock ups, put it in the contract.
But I disagree with just giving you 50% based purely on the trust that your portfolio is solid. Your portfolio says jack shit about how well you meet deadlines, follow through on requests, yada yada yada. With the contract and deliverable dates, and expectations of cost, it does away with all of these worries and concerns for both parties.
It does not have to be drilled down to the finest details. You quote time, I agree on time, you agree to deliver items in X time, I pay you in X time. Simple.
April 16th, 2007 at 12:01 pm
@gb - Obviously his clients weren’t aware of everything. Otherwise they wouldn’t have complained when they were handed a PSD file instead of what they expected.
April 16th, 2007 at 12:04 pm
A real designer in a real development house works under contract… and one of a couple comps gets handed over to a development team to do the real work.
April 16th, 2007 at 12:16 pm
I suppose if chatlogs and Paypal are big concerns for a designer, this is great advice to get an extra 40 bucks to buy xSceneGirlx that corsage for prom. Age jabs aside, what you’ve outlined here are common pitfalls for those entering the design world with substandard or no education of the field. Any program worth its salt will require at least a business and contract law class. It’s cool that you’re thinking of the business side of things at 17, but you can’t write off errors in your advice just because of your age. There are 20, 30, and 40 year olds reading your blog and being mislead by inexperience.
In the real world, you have an attorney write contracts and don’t rely on chatlogs for any sort of legal standing. Being stiffed 80 bucks for a PSD is nothing compared to being stiffed several thousand dollars by a Fortune 500. Instead of missing out on a couple Wii games, your house goes into foreclosure.
I think the fact that there is ANY confusion at the handoff stage means you are absolutely not being clear enough at the start. Handing off a PSD is not “web design”, and is misleading at best. Anyone can mock up a site with glossy 2.0 buttons and gradients and call themselves a web designer.
April 16th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
During my five years as a contract programmer/ consultant and the past year as project manager for a large web development firm, I have never considered “web design” to include “coding.” It should be common knowledge that graphic web design and slicing/coding are two very different arts. Nevertheless, a contract outlining specific deliverables is always a good idea.
April 16th, 2007 at 12:26 pm
You are the hottest tech guy I’ve ever seen.
April 16th, 2007 at 12:27 pm
Lol. I always do it the other way around.
I make it very clear I AM NOT A DESIGNER.
I will create the back-end administration, the front-end, the style-sheets, etc.
But they just either provide me with graphics and specific color sets, _or_ hire some one else to do that.
The idea that you can even make a site based on an photoshop is so nighties though. You can’t. PERIOD.
Why?
- interaction/animation of elements is part of design. so what color do we see on a mouse-over?
- it should quickly load. Not all photohops can be turned into efficient loading sites.
- the content should be update-able/dynamic through a back-end, stuff like fonts has to be dealt with using CSS. You can’t give me a picture and say ‘hey, guess what font i’m using’.
- turning a picture into a site takes longer than actually creating the picture.
- you need to take into account specific technical limitations of html. not all layouts are POSSIBLE without sacrifycing compatibility with different browsers, screen resolutions, etc.
- how do we deal with dynamic pages? Screenshots do not work. I need the full background image, not just the parts of the background that are visible in some randomly rendered screenshot.
- what about which elements are scrollable, what about dropdown menus?
This is why I work the other way around.
I design the user-interface, I write the code.
The designer SKINS it. He updates the CSS, he updates the images to his liking (i start of with stock bsd-liscenced icons). He does not touch the code though. (the actual code that _generates_ the html)
If a site really is static and does not require all this, and is very focused on design, I recommend they look for a flash designer and skip the server-side dynamically generated code completely.
The idea of a photoshopping a site is so ridiculous its almost funny. Like designer a car on a paper and then handing it over. There you go, now its your turn to figure out to fit an engine in there.
THE TECHNICAL SIDE ALWAYS LIMITS THE POSSIBILITIES OF THE DESIGN.
So you can’t design without designing the implementation. If you want to do it sequentially, start coding, then SKIN it. Not the other way around.
April 16th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
man…i really wish i read this stuff when i first started out doing freelance. could have saved me A LOT of grief. i admit, i was waaaaaaaaay too innocent when i started out. good post!
April 16th, 2007 at 1:06 pm
Meneer R is correct.
April 16th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
[…] found this article via Designers Mind. I really like the point about charging a fee upfront, say 30%-50% up-front so the client […]
April 16th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
I will allow payments over time, but I charge interest. If I’m going to be the bank, then I’m going to use the bankers handbook. I charge 6% interest on any payment plans.
April 16th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
These are good pointers. It can be tough to negotiate up front fees when you really need the work. Customers can sure be deadbeats! Also you do look like a jedi.
April 16th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
It’s highly unlikely that anyone who doesn’t know much about websites would distinguish between “designing a website” and “making a website.”
I think your sales tactics are misleading.
Can you let me know who your clients are so I can pick up some of them? I’m sure they don’t have any loyalty to you.
April 16th, 2007 at 2:53 pm
When in doubt about contract GAG (Graphic Arts Guild) Pricing Book has sample contracts that spell out a lot of the points covered. Also it’s great for estimating out-sourced work as it has national hourly averages for different artist.
As for the “I have a few other designers in mind, can you create a few mock-ups and maybe I’ll pick you?” That in the industry is call “Work on Spec”. A lot of big corporations will do that, especially fashion industry. Urban Outfitters is notorious for turning down an agency’s shirt submission only to have it show up on the racks 3 years later when they think no one will know.
Also be clear to clients about copyright and final artwork ownership. YOUR CLIENT IS NOT ENTITLED TO THE ORIGINAL INDESIGN OR ILLUSTRATOR DOCUMENT. Don’t take that “we just want backup copy” or “we just want to put it in our word docs templates”. They will reprint your artwork without notification and there goes your 15% printer fee. Or they will take changes to some hack at Kinko’s because they think saving money will help. This is referred as “Work for hire”. If the client wants to do a ‘buyout’ be sure that price is spelled out on their contract. Average cost of a buyout is anywhere between 50% to 100% of the original design cost.
April 16th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
@Meneer R
“The idea that you can even make a site based on an photoshop is so nighties though. You can’t. PERIOD.”
Yes, you can, providing that the designer has knowledge in coding and the coder is competant. I never provide anyone with a screenshot, I provide them with a layered .PSD and the fonts I used. I must have been really misleading in my post, everyone seems to think my business tactic is to get out of coding by any means possible. My clients know that they aren’t receiving a coded file, it’s made VERY clear.
Some clients, however, upon completion of the project, tell me that coding was part of the deal, when it was never agreed upon.
“The idea of a photoshopping a site is so ridiculous its almost funny. Like designer a car on a paper and then handing it over. There you go, now its your turn to figure out to fit an engine in there.”
Therein lies my job: the design must be easy for the coder to decipher and use. I’m sorry, but I really doubt GM has one guy who handles everything from concept drawings all the way to distribution. Certain people work on the concept drawings, then hand it off to the next step in the chain. That’s how things work. Multiple people specializing in certain aspects of a products design ensures better quality in my mind.
April 16th, 2007 at 6:48 pm
50% of free is half of nothing
April 16th, 2007 at 6:55 pm
Meneer R, you are cracking me up. You build the site first then have the designer skin it? No wonder you think that design is limited to the technology used. This is just plain ridiculous. Is jacob nielsen your biz partner?
April 16th, 2007 at 7:01 pm
“That’s like contracting a construction company to build your house. They drop off the raw materials and give you the business card of someone that can put it together.”
would you want an architect with no building experience building your house or a contractor who does this stuff for a living?
April 16th, 2007 at 8:40 pm
Wow, a lot of people here confusing “Web DESIGN” and “Web DEVELOPMENT”.
Design does not constitute developing a website. Design should never inherently involve any programming or coding.
April 16th, 2007 at 9:44 pm
[…] DesignersMind » Blog Archive » Five reasons to turn down a potential client (tags: business freelance design tips webdesign clients work) […]
April 16th, 2007 at 9:52 pm
Tyler, it sounds to me like you are using the title of web designer to get a job you might not get otherwise or more pay than you would would get than if you advertised your work as “graphic design”. There are obviously destinctions that you are drawing between the two jobs that you are well-aware the general public does not make but you continue to use the title anyhow and you complain when a customer expects something that seems resonable given the knowledge of a bystandard.
The person is obviously incapapble of creating their won website and more-than-likely (based from that fact) would not know that your definition of web design is any different than theirs.
The spirit in which your original article is written amkes you seem deceiving and it seems as if you are using a fraudulent job title as you are not capapble of actually doing complete web design.
April 16th, 2007 at 9:57 pm
For distinction, a concept car designer does not call himself an engineer, assembler, parts stamper, etc. and has no right to; only to claim he designs the concept of the car. A graphic designer is responsible for creating all of the graphic work in a piece (fonts, colors composition) and a web designer is responsible for creating a web site, both aesthetically and functionally. Just because all three of these use the word designer in the title doesn’t mean they all have the same level of duty.
You are subject to make the work you are capable of doing clear, not just to avoid bringing it up so you can say “Hey, coding was never mentioned. Pay me.”
April 16th, 2007 at 10:01 pm
Some of you kids must be 12 years old or mentally challenged. Can you not read?
a Web DESIGNER is not someone who CREATES A FULL WEBPAGE. A web designer is someone who DESIGNS a webpage. Meaning, they create the layout. Also, once again, since you can’t read; he said he makes it VERY CLEAR to the client that they are not going to recieve it coded. 75% of the people that posted here don’t even have the education of an elementry school student from the looks of it. Go back to school.
April 16th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
Where do you glean your definition of web designer? So maybe an architect is never expected to build the house himself (although he hires the builder himself and includes the cost in the bid, and sees the consrtuctuion through as a supervisor to completion) but ask someone what an architect is and they will say “they design buildings”; it is pretty common knowledge. The term lacks much ambiguity. Find me a solid and corroborated definition of what a web deisgner is, find me a lack of professional ambiguity, and I will agree with you. However, I have to say that since there lacks a common knowledge definiton of what a web designer is and since the poster is clearly creating his own definiton to fit what he is capable of that the services rendered should be in a paper contract, not snaked into place by not being mentioned.
“Hey architect, you didn’t add the stairs!”
“Not all architects design stairs, you have to hire someone else”
“But you’re the architect?!”
“We never once discussed stairs, check my logs.”
April 16th, 2007 at 10:29 pm
[…] DesignersMind » Blog Archive » Five reasons to turn down a potential client (tags: tips freelance webdesign clients business advice work) […]
April 16th, 2007 at 10:57 pm
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April 17th, 2007 at 12:01 am
I’d like everyone please to refer to CBG’s comment:
“Wow, a lot of people here confusing “Web DESIGNâ€? and “Web DEVELOPMENTâ€?. Design does not constitute developing a website. Design should never inherently involve any programming or coding.”
Take a second to think about the meaning of both the words “design” and “development”.
April 17th, 2007 at 3:35 am
this “article” is a pinnacle of idiocy. let’s throw together some meaningless banter, some painfully obvious observations and douse everything in “use your own brain”. then wish people a happy easter egg insertion and wham, digg material.
not only it says nothing useful, or meaningful about design, after reading it i have serious doubts the author managed his way through highschool (equivalency, right ?)
April 17th, 2007 at 4:23 am
“WOW”……….
April 17th, 2007 at 5:13 am
Good read.
The random pic of you and a jedi where great.
Ignore the chumps comments about how you don’t code. I’m a coder and given a design it’s bloody easy to slap a page together.
April 17th, 2007 at 5:24 am
My recent post is not showing up ???? How come lol…
Anyways…. this reply is for “WOW” whoever you are lol..
Designing website layout is just a part of a Website Designer’s JOB… is there a job title of Website Layout Designer??? lol…
Website designing comprises of Graphics/Images, HTML and/or CSS. If you call yourself a website designer that just designs a website layout… then you are very incompetent on your field and you should be the first one who needs to go back to school.
Well if your lazy enough not to go back to school … then just visit Wikipedia.ORG, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Website_design lol.
Don’t tell me you’ll be lazy reading too.
Googluck WOW…
April 17th, 2007 at 5:25 am
[…] 5 razones por las que no aceptar a un cliente potencial (tags: business freelance clients work minizen) […]
April 17th, 2007 at 7:25 am
[…] DesignersMind ? Blog Archive ? Five reasons to turn down a potential client (tags: business blog career freelance reference) […]
April 17th, 2007 at 7:25 am
I really liked this article and I found it to be very informative.
However, I really don’t understand why you have such a problem with doing even minor code work.
Nowadays these skills come hand in hand. If I couldn’t slice a template and produce even the crappiest set of functional pages using HTML and CSS alone, I’d probably cry.
I’m glad you can outsource your work. However, if you are unable to find a coder to pawn it off to, what do you do then ? Make the client wait ?
April 17th, 2007 at 7:31 am
Good read.
The random pic of you and a jedi where great.
Ignore the chumps comments about how you don’t code. I’m a coder and given a design it’s bloody easy to slap a page together.
April 17th, 2007 at 11:46 am
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April 17th, 2007 at 1:51 pm
“If you’re like me, you love the Photoshop aspect of design and can’t stand coding. ”
I’m quite the opposite, I love coding and uhm… like designing so I started a new initiative that helps designers like you by slicing up their designs, check it out at fastSlicer.com
April 17th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
*sigh*… so sad and so true… why are designers taken for granted so often… people act like our work is entirely to easy… so much so, that we certainly can’t expect it to be a legitimate occupation…
April 17th, 2007 at 4:05 pm
Great!, here in Argentina it’s terrible, but true.
April 17th, 2007 at 5:49 pm
[…] DesignersMind » Blog Archive » Five reasons to turn down a potential client (tags: business freelance design tips webdesign clients work) […]
April 17th, 2007 at 6:04 pm
I agree with Santiago, in México is very common!
April 18th, 2007 at 8:05 am
[…] ’s some situations I suggest I’ve been faced with that I suggest you try to avoid.read more | digg […]
April 18th, 2007 at 1:08 pm
It’s true that people seem to be confused between web design and web development. Web design does NOT necessarily include coding the HTML/CSS — that is development. Web design as Tyler is using it is not necessarily *just* graphic design. Graphic design is creation of pictures/graphics/logos/web templates/etc. When someone designs a logo, that’s graphic design.
When someone designs a web site template, that is also graphic design, but it’s web design, too, if it keeps in mind how the backgrounds will work and how the images can be sliced to create an efficient web page. Not every graphic designer can be a good “web designer”. If his graphics are conducive to being sliced and coded efficiently into awesome HTML/CSS, then yeah, he’s not just a graphic designer; he’s a web designer as well. He’s just not a developer, which is fine. Let the developer develop, as long as they can work together well to deliver an outstanding product.
April 18th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
People misunderstood me. I can produce code, but I usually prefer to outsource the coding work so that I can do more graphic work. I still offer coding services for clients if absolutely necessary.
April 18th, 2007 at 5:44 pm
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April 19th, 2007 at 5:55 pm
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April 20th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
If you can get paid by just creating the .PSD file, I say go for it. The argument on whether coding should be included can go back and forth forever.
I would just let the clients know ahead of time that the deliverables will need to be coded as a courtesy - even going as far as recommending someone or handling the process yourself.
Design and coding may seem to go hand in hand in “web design,” but for today’s sites, especially with CSS, it is hard to find someone who is an expert in both areas.
April 20th, 2007 at 6:18 pm
[…] 20 04 2007 Designer’sMind has a great article titled Five reasons to turn down a potential client. I don’t have any money, but this will get you some great exposure! I’m not sure what I want, […]
April 21st, 2007 at 11:29 am
All of his points are valid. This is really good advice. I’ve been doing this work since 1994. Potential clients will try to woo you with everything. If yor’re design career is just beginning, get exposure by building things for yourself, not by giviing free work away.
If you design something for free, chances are the client will only “enhance” your work later on after you are not longer willing to work for free. And the design “upgrades” they make will be so poorly executed you will no longer be proud to show this piece of work to anyone.
April 21st, 2007 at 3:44 pm
Lol, you just give your clients PSDs without any coding?
April 21st, 2007 at 4:10 pm
MarkyMark, read the rest of the comments.
April 23rd, 2007 at 9:13 am
[…] posts: Five reasons to turn down a potential client and Are you cut out to be a […]
April 24th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
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April 24th, 2007 at 10:00 pm
There’s 2 things that are for sure:
1) The common everyday use of the term “web design” includes coding.When people are looking for a web designer they’re looking for someone who will deliver a full, functional site.
2) It’s really not of any interest if you outsource the coding or do it yourself.I have the impression that what you tell your clients is that you (can) outsource the coding but you don’t tell them that this will cost extra.If i were your client and you’d tell me that coding will be outsourced i would be like “yeah, whatever, just make it work” and have the impression that coding is *included* in the fee we have agreed upon.
You pretend as if saying “outsource” would equal saying “extra cost” which is not the same.
I wonder if you ever have told your complaining clients upfront that coding is NOT included in the price and that it will cost EXTRA.
The point is not if you should code yourself or not (although i do think if you call yourself a web designer you should code yourself as long as you’re a freelancer and don’t work in a team), the point is not letting clients in the dark about THE COSTS.
April 27th, 2007 at 10:17 am
GREAAAAAAAAAAT article. As an art student, I know this will definitely help me out. How did you get started freelancing?
May 8th, 2007 at 7:58 am
I’ve been asked by clients to produce psds on more than one occasion. A developer is not the same as a designer, so long as both parties understand the brief I dont see a problem in only providing the visual elements of a site. Work it out on an hourly basis and get approval at every available opportunity.
Don’t ever do work for nothing, if you do then your underselling yourself as well as the rest of us.
May 14th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
thanks for the tips. They are really helpful for a budding free lancer like me.
May 20th, 2007 at 10:54 am
I’m seeing allot of unfair criticism being directed at Tyler for really insignificant reasons.
My customers these days are extremely web-savvy and understand and know the difference between the terms template, website, front-end, back-end, and layout-design. So when they say “Where’s the code” 90% percent of the time it’s not a breakdown in communucation but rather someone trying to underhand an individual or company, and reap the benifit as a result.
Contracts are there to verify there is no breakdown in communication, project specifiction and design briefs are advantageous when covering your own arse
I agree with more-or-less everthing you said Tyler, nice little article.
Regards,
Martin
May 24th, 2007 at 1:40 pm
Tyler I agree with what you have to say. I am a designer with little programing skills. I understand the concepts involved in the programming I am just not very good at it. Like you my time is better spent in user experience and not back-end stuff. As long as you can steer your designs in a direction that does make a programmer jump off a cliff you’ll be OK.
I have never really meet anyone who is “GOD like” as a designer and programmer. People tend too sway to one side or the other. They are two very different skill sets choose the one you want to do and find someone who likes to do the other a make a team. A good designer and a good programmer working together are much better than a good designer trying to program or a good programmer trying to design.
June 2nd, 2007 at 2:52 am
Someone says to me, “I want a website.”
I say, “I’ll design one for you.”
He says, “What do you mean by design?”
I say, “I just do the visual layout and graphics. Coding gets outsourced.”
He says “How much” and I give a price. He says “OK.”
I deliver the visual layout with graphics. He says “That’s not a website!”
“But” say clever I, “I never said I’d give you a full, operational web site. Just as I promised, I’ve delivered the design for one.”
“But you said you’d outsource the code!”
“No. I said the code gets outsourced, not that I would do it or include it in the price.”
I am, as I ought to be, ashamed of myself.
But I’m not a budding young businessman with a great future in the world of legalised fraud.
Most people still don’t know the difference between a web site and a web page and a home page or how a browser is different from a monitor. They don’t know, they don’t want to know. All they want is a web site.
They will NEVER grasp the concept and implications of variable screen resolution and/or variable font size.
They will ALWAYS want you to change something basic as the job nears completion, and will always assume that your agreement implied more work from you at no change in price.
You have to explain it thoroughly. You have to write it down.
You have to provide “mockups” but they don’t have to be full-sized.
If someone really wants to steal from you, they will. It’s part of the cost of doing business. You earn enough to keep on doing it, or you don’t.
Good luck.
June 10th, 2007 at 9:10 pm
[…] another similar article points out 5 types of clients we should reject…. and there are 5 types of […]
June 17th, 2007 at 6:15 am
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August 10th, 2007 at 1:31 am
Wow, everyone is giving you such a hard time Tyler… Great article bro - I FULLY understand that you are up front with your client about the coding lol - I knew that when I read the article the first time, these people just can’t read lmao. I understand where you are comming from as well. I am a web designer AND developer - and there is a very distinct difference between the two that ANYONE in the industry should know. And yes - I am a ‘real’ developer lol, all of my XHTML and CSS validates 100%, it’s in my contract - my clients get very proffesional work. I also, prefer the graphics side of things - coding is a drag, but I do it because I can. I kinda wish I ‘could’ outsource it
Man, I would LOVE to talk to you about something - please email me man - jaywilliams2005 (at) yahoo (dot) com
By the way, I can relate to you a ton too - I am only 21 myself, and I think it’s awesome what you are doing with your talent. I own a related business (working on the site or I would drop a link) and I could possibly code for you, or outsource my graphics to you - or something I’m sure, at least worth talking about. Perhaps we could even share techniques/advice or help each other with advertising? Please email me man - because I don’t know how to contact you lol. I’ll show you some examples of my work (all clearly my own - with copyright). jaywilliams2005 (at) yahoo (dot) com
Also, since you are into graphic design so much, check this out: http://www.gomedia.us/arsenal/ - I am planning on getting most of their stuff with my next few jobs, should be very helpful.
Peace out - and good luck with your ventures,
Jay Williams. - jaywilliams2005 (at) yahoo (dot) com
September 11th, 2007 at 12:10 am
Its wonderful, Sweet!
November 1st, 2007 at 10:07 am
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